Hi Wayne, yeah i find religion very interesting mainly because i just want to know the honest truth about existence...everyones looking for it (the truth about why we are here and whats going on)...the paleo-archeologists look for clues in the dirt for fossils...the physicists try to search what the universe is made of ....astronomers look into deepest space, and religious people desperately seek their God in prophecies and texts.

But i guess the scientists, the clerics, the philosophers are really all searching for the same thing - the truth. The deep facts or the right reason to uncover the truth of life.

I used to be religous, and for me i felt absolutely convinced (as a Christian) of my faith. But i slowely lost my faith.

As incompatable contradictions of written word and proven facts - I would study to try to deduce with logic to test wether i was right or wrong with many issues in the literal writings of creation and prophecies and i slowely thought i was wrong so i didnt believe anymore.

But faith is very strong and compelling and some prophecies have been fulfilled wich convinces, but when i look in history the rulers were always religious powerful people who took the opportunities to self fulfil the prophecies and fulfil their religious beliefs (maybe religous people like George Bush believes he does Gods work)as all rulers in the past.

Also many people are always making religious prophecies (i can think of many even now)so in history out of the thousands of people whos prophecies didnt come true there are always a few people that theres did come true; so these texts are identified as canonical and from God, but maybe this is why i view religions as evolutionary in their ability to change down through the centuries.

Rulers manipulate world events to fit their prejudices of religous thought. And also the religious theology of lay people and clerics slowly adapt metaphorical interpretations of text to fit new realities or new realisations.

I believe in evolution simply because the world (the earth - records its history so well I find fossils just down my road) and when i look into cliffs of valleys with rivers i know that the earth is extremely ancient- the rivers took a long time to carve the valley. The genetics of plants and animals all over the world match up with continental drift theories and so on. So i dont believe the earth is 7000 years old or whatever.
But i still want to know what the hell we are doing here and why; it really drives me crazy. I like religion there is so much good for people to discipline their morals and seek God for help etc and i still search for God.

And i admire some of the prophets and wise people of all religions who had such ethical genius to state such great and powerful wisdom like Jesus words ”do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.
Or the words of Buddah or Confuscious or The beliefs of Karmah or The prophet Muhammad. All these religions have ethical genius that has held societies together and one of them might be true.

Steven, religion means different things to different people and it is good to see here what the word religion means to you. Interesting attitude and obeisance is how we identify with the word religion in our mind. Me, when I hear or see the word religion spoken or written I think of places where people gather to worship their particular gods, I think of special rites and special people and special words dedicated to their special gods and to themselves as the special people that they think that they are. I think of people praying and singing and making offerings to their particular gods and symbols of their particular faith. I see people gathering together to pay homage and to pay respect and to give thanks to their particular gods and shadows. I think of people going off to war and off to their own destruction praying that their particular gods will watch over them and theirs here on earth and in their afterlives, too. I see people of all ages spreading their religious beliefs wherever they go. I see people of all nationalities and of all political persuasions demonstrating robustly and passionately their special religious doctrines and beliefs. Yes, when I see or hear the word religion my heart wells up with unimaginable inner pain because I cannot believe that so many millions and billions of people the world over still believe in things that do not and never did exist. Ah, I wish sometimes I would be like them and when I heard or saw the word religion I would just think of those two words attitude and obeisance. Sure would make my life much simpler, don’t you think so?
THANKS STEVEN and great independent thoughts

Hey Wayne, yeah i think true faith would make life much easier, because you have a textbook manual of how to live and everything is not a mystery anymore.

These convictions are so strong that i think it emboldens people to the point they they can do extreme acts that defy all natures self preservation - everything wants to survive.(although animals sacrifice themselves for their young sometimes) but with religion these people can become bold and suicide bombers or let themselves be burnt at the stake or things that seem to have no beneficial gains in this life. But the convictions of rewards after death.

Religions have come and gone in the world some of them much more ancient and lasted longer on the earth than some present mainstream ones.

For example the Egyptian religion of seth aten osirus etc lasted for over 5000 years and was pivotal and central to the lives of countless generations in a powerful advanced country who embalmed and built pyramids with absolute certainty of their faith. But its all gone and it makes me wonder whats so different with these other religions. They have come and gone, and after thousands of generations something happens and they dissapear.

In my country ancient Aboriginal beliefs were practised for incredible time spans but now because of European invasion/colonisation they have dissapeared except for some things that survived.

So history even shows us that religions can be destroyed with time and chance. After the thousands of years of the drama and passion and intrigues that religion invokes in its followers.

Steven
Thanks very interesting thoughts!

Images to me are life itself because I see images through my eyes and through all of my other senses, as well. I see images in my mind and I see them there when I am sleeping, too.

In religion I used to see those images described to me by religious teachers and by my parents and others. Then, I realized that all religions and cults were born out of images that were in other people’s minds thousands of years ago. So, after learning that I no longer realize religious images as being anything other than what they were and what they continue to be and that is they are imaginary and nothing more.

Imagine imagining the world where you live without images and without imagination, and then, imagine the world as it is and as you want it to someday be like and then, you will be imagining all that I am imagining imagining about that same world, too.

Hi WAyne
Im not sure if i understand you correctly but i think so, the interesting point of the respect and obesciance that people honour their forebears imaginings. I find it hard to imagine a world where we break away from our forebears teachings because i think people wouldnt like to.Like you said we are very imaginative creatures. But im not sure what the world would be like but now youve got me thinking about it!
Thanks wayne

Everyone needs to believe in something, unfortunatly many religions take advantage of human weakness rather than trying to stregnthen and support humanity.

I was raised a ”good Catholic”, now, according to my Mother, I’m going straight to hell for my lack of faith.

What happened? I don’t know..I guess life happened. I wish at times, I could have it all back..I wish if I were sad and confused a quick trip to mass, a few Hail Mary’s and a handshake with the Priest could assure me, life me up. I wish sometimes, I’d get that ”high” of knowing someone has ”got my back” and the Church would do no harm. but.....life stepped in.

I think there is a very big difference between spirituality, faith and religion.

I gave up on Church and religion. I seek my own answers, my own path, my own truths. I am not prejusdiced by where or whom they come from. I don’t feel I can only look within ”one book” to learn.

OSCAR
Whenever you speak i listen ,you are open mined and logical
Modern religious thought is the struggle to reconcile religious traditions with the 20th century triumphs of science and secularism. One way to do this is to believe that religion is therapeutic and therefore valuable in one’s private life, although we shouldn’t let our public institutions, like institutions of science or courts, be run according to religious tenets. One indicator of this struggle is the fact that more people report that their conceptions of God are personal or hybridized. Picking and choosing the best parts from different religions now seems acceptable to many, but would have been considered blasphemous by all in past centuries.

Yes, Many have chosen to personalize..taking bits and pieces..grasping the good andthrowing out the undesired...

Maybe it is not right, but Religious instituitions have created much despair.

Maybe in the past, nd maybe even now it is considered blasphemy..but hipcritical faith or human laziness, waiting for God to fix our ills, or blaming God for our destructive ways doesn’t work either.

I think if it eases your heart, keeps you at peace..Go for it..If you beleve in God, Buddah, Jehovah, Allah, feel they are all one in the same, or feel the rocks, rivers, and birds are all part of your higher power, IT is definitly not my place to condone nor condemn..

I

PEACE/PAZ

hi good points guys
yeah if people dont know for sure, i mean faith is exactly that - believing things unseen or unproven - then no one has the right to condemn for their beliefs and vice versa. People think what they like, its ok by me.

Except for taking their beliefs and using it for persecuting others is wrong.
And also institutionalised atheism is wrong too because in China and the old soviet Union people get persecuted for having faith so i guess the important thing is not to persecute each other.

Hi Steven
Thanks for the exchange of thoughts None right and none wrong,just us humans because of chemical makeup forced to think

Oscar @ Steven
The fundamental point i disagree with you both and that is there is no choice in what we all believe

Because of borders and flags and how each person is mind formed in that culture or religon they are locked for live with very few able to escape , 99% of people live and die in the country and believe brought up in,unless an invading force over time forces a different belief on them and we seen this many times

@ Wayne

Yes ive thought about what youve said you know about flags and borders and upbringing and stuff religion yes its very difficult to get rid of that stuff I cant get rid of it all out of me too.

But i thought about what you said you know, imagining and stuff and i think one of the problems is that the science of the humans and evolution, is at its heart presented in a way that is very unnapealing to people.

If evolutionary research and revelations are ever gonna be believed by people it first has to be more appealing to them than religion; and can in time, i believe, become a credible and desirable belief - with even more advantagous rewards than what religions provides people with at present; which is basically a sedative and pacifying acceptance of mortality with hopes about vague misty heavens that might not actually deliver.

Because humans grew too smart and need help with mortality anxiety.

So heres what im proposing that for people to transition to honest acceptance of our world and you know the earths history etc evolution and trade their old religions away and stop thinking the earths history and fossils are part of a big evil conspiracy, someone has to offer a viable realistic logic based alternative to religion.

Im still thinking about more things and suggestions for such a movement but one suggestion would be cryogenesis graveyards and that ”heaven will come soon” and also such a religion would have to have ongoing research to improve its goals of providing and competing with the religous fundamentals of (a) life after death
(b) systems for good behaviour and moral disciplines for spiritual rewards....maybe honours and distinctions or something and punishment for terrible behaviour (after death)
(c) interests and social life and places of meeting and celebrating mariages and births etc
(d)beatiful grand romantic buildings and gardens of tranquillity to go and study texts and listen to learned wise councillors to help with problems
(e) maybe use the internet to pray for an answer you know instablogs or something

So if the people had a viable alternative to the mainstream religions (with technology permitting - maybe sometime in the future) it would give them the luxury of investigating it and re-evaluating the truth and logic of their present religion; and some people who are too frightened to honestly question their beliefs because they need refuge and comfort in their beliefs from mortality anxiety, could see a working alternative and it might give them a little more freedom to think carefully to decide.

Maybe people who believe evolution could think of some more stuff to help the poor humans and our stress and think of some religious alternatives but definately nothing like cults or destructive emotionally abusive things just light hearted ideals i suppose.

STEVEN
You have a very active and open curious mind, but you are one of the few
I like your ideas and to logic it would work but humans run on emotion and fear- not logic
What you and i say will fall on deaf ears as we are still early in our evolution and will be oppressed in thought and tradition for many hundreds of years to come
Most humans don’t care what we think because they are busy doing natures work and she doesn’t allow ideal thoughts